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Wiring for layman
Clay
Can someone shove me in the right direction? I'm not an electronics guys. I don't know, what I don't know. I'm ignorant, but I can learn.

What I need is a BASIC understanding of PID controllers and other wiring appropriate for building a roaster. Is the a good thread on this forum that addresses these fundamentals for us beginners at building?

Is there a good book or link that you can point me towards?

Still undecided on exactly what type of roster that I want to build but right now a KKTO or Rob style fluid bed is on the short list.

Sorry, but I will be asking many questions, thanks for your patience. Gathering information to help the build along when I get ready to tackle the project.
Edited by Clay on 12/10/2018 6:56 AM
ECM Synchronika
Ceado E6X
Bunn VPR APS
Bread Machine Heat gun formerly, here to find a better mouse trap.
 
renatoa
welcome2

KKTO is much simpler to build and drive than fluid bed. Also at least half power hungry, if that matters. Plus, a lot less quiet.

Yeah, PID is not the best way to control a roasting process.
After many experiments, that include predictive controllers, the best and most logical way for me, on a mixed IR/convection machine driven by a turbo oven lid, is to use constant power level for the whole process, starting with turning point.
The key point is to find that level for your actual coffee variety quantity, that led you to a right roast time, with FC in the 8-10 minutes ballpark.
This level can be easily guesstimated in the first 2-3 minutes of drying, after you become familiar with you machine.

This constant power roasting style is supported by thermodynamics laws also, a body placed in a constant temperature environment absorb heat following an exponential curve that could be seen as the perfect roast profile, if such thing exist...

Never had at the end the so much debated RoR flicks/drops/crashes that some people using fancy controllers experiments.
I rather assume these are due to the inability of a PID to follow with same accuracy such broad range of variation, from 40 to 5 degrees per minute, with same PID coefficients.
We should remember PID was been primarily designed to maintain a fixed setpoint, not follow a variable one ;)
 
Clay
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm trying to keep up with the alphabet soup of the coffee jargon. Question, but what is "RoR"?

I'm looking to build something in the 1 to 3 kg range for green bean starting weight.

Simple is good. I just finished going through RoasterRob's 14 page thread from 2010 and I have read most of the KKTO developments. The HoneyBadger interests me too. Like, I said, I'm still contemplating desgins.

Would love something simple that gets me up and running quick without a 3 month building process.

Thanks again.
ECM Synchronika
Ceado E6X
Bunn VPR APS
Bread Machine Heat gun formerly, here to find a better mouse trap.
 
renatoa
RoR = Rate of Rise, how many degrees temperature increase every minute.
One of the strongest myths/laws of this religion say the Rate of Rise should be continuously declining value the whole roast process.
So if between minutes 5 and 6 we have a 15 C degrees increase, from 135 C to 150 C, then the next minute the increase should be less than 15 minutes, say 12 degrees, as 150 to 162 C at minute 7.
People are scared as hell and try to avoid as much as they can sudden changes in this RoR evolution, because is believed such changes led to roast defects.
Nobody found a scientifically explanation where this belief comes Grin

1 kg is much, even for a TO... 800 grams was maximum I can achieve, the limitation is not power related, but finding an appropriate roasting pot, the 4-6 qt pasta strainers that are so popular in some markets, in Europe have another shapes that make them unsuitable for coffee roasting.

More than 1 kg fluid bed is definitely a big, many months project, compared with a TO based project that can be done in a day, if all parts are already gathered.
I would rather build two TO machines and feel like a DJ at two turntables Grin than even thinking to approach an 1.5 kg fluid bed.
 
jkoll42
Clay wrote:

The HoneyBadger interests me too. Like, I said, I'm still contemplating desgins.

Would love something simple that gets me up and running quick without a 3 month building process.

Thanks again.


Hey Clay

If you have any questions about the ol' Badger just ask. It's a pretty simple design but has worked really good over the years. Fire, spinny thing, coffee :)

I personally have found it easier to just manually control temp w/o PID. I think everyone that has done it are awesome but it's certainly not something necessary to get a good roast. For some people it's fun and in their wheelhouse for others it's not. Enjoy yourself in the hobby! Heat, coffee...the rest is up to what your're going to enjoy the most.
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
Clay
Renatoa, I've been doing 800 grams with my bread maker / heatgun and looking for something bigger. I really do like the Pasta pot Sunpentown turbo oven combo. Simple and effective. I smiled at the double turn table image in my minds eye.

JKoll, after doing hundreds of pounds on a bread machine / heat (Corretto method) the Honey Badger just looked like a supersized version. More power, bigger payload. I'll take you up on your offer soon enough. It's still on the short list.

Anyone have any good references still for my electronic learning curve?

Thanks.
Edited by Clay on 12/10/2018 3:46 PM
ECM Synchronika
Ceado E6X
Bunn VPR APS
Bread Machine Heat gun formerly, here to find a better mouse trap.
 
jkoll42
Clay wrote:

Renatoa, I've been doing 800 grams with my bread maker / heatgun and looking for something bigger. I really do like the Pasta pot Sunpentown turbo oven combo. Simple and effective. I smiled at the double turn table image in my minds eye.

LKoll, after doing hundreds of pounds on a bread machine / heat (Corretto method) the Honey Badger just looked like a supersized version. More power, bigger payload. I'll take you up on your offer soon enough. It's still on the short list.

Anyone have any good references still for my electronic learning curve?

Thanks.


Thats exactly why I built it Clay. Ran hundreds of pounds through a HG/BM, really like it and basically upsized it/switched to gas so I didn't have to get involved in rewiring the garage.
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
Wiz Kalita
renatoa wrote:

RoR = Rate of Rise, how many degrees temperature increase every minute.
One of the strongest myths/laws of this religion say the Rate of Rise should be continuously declining value the whole roast process.
So if between minutes 5 and 6 we have a 15 C degrees increase, from 135 C to 150 C, then the next minute the increase should be less than 15 minutes, say 12 degrees, as 150 to 162 C at minute 7.
People are scared as hell and try to avoid as much as they can sudden changes in this RoR evolution, because is believed such changes led to roast defects.
Nobody found a scientifically explanation where this belief comes Grin


I haven't seen any literature on how flavor profile is influenced by the RoR curve, and until roasters start funding publicly available research there likely won't be any. But a decreasing RoR will clearly lead to a less steep internal temperature gradient at the end of the roast, and thus more even development.

As far as the flick and crash around FC goes, I believe that radiation based heating mitigates the effects. When water is suddenly released from the beans, the vapor will rapidly decrease in temperature, and this vapor shields the beans from hot air, and needs to be heated up again. Fluidized bed roasters blow away the vapor and IR radiation is mostly transmitted, so if my hypothesis is correct the crash is much more of a problem in drum roasters.
 
JitterzZ
"I haven't seen any literature on how flavor profile is influenced by the RoR curve, and until roasters start funding publicly available research there likely won't be any".


This might help someone:
What is Baked Coffee? (MOST PROS DON'T KNOW!) https://www.scott...-dont-know

How To: Avoid The Flick And Crash http://blog.oilsl...ick-crash/
Edited by JitterzZ on 01/16/2019 2:42 PM
 
renatoa
Sure, if coming from Rao, it must be true... Grin
This make me wonder why all my best roasts are developed outside his recommended interval, around 20% of total time... and so agree also most pro roasters I know...
Rao claims too much from his experience, but make no effort to back this claims with physics laws or something smelling a bit as science.
 
JitterzZ
renatoa wrote:

Sure, if coming from Rao, it must be true... Grin
This make me wonder why all my best roasts are developed outside his recommended interval, around 20% of total time... and so agree also most pro roasters I know...
Rao claims too much from his experience, but make no effort to back this claims with physics laws or something smelling a bit as science.



Thank you for your input. I'm just getting started in roasting my own coffee, so I'm sure it will be an adventure discovering what works best for me.
Cheerscoffee drink
 
renatoa
Check Mr. Jim Schulman posts, in various places over the internet, not here.
He is quoted here in some posts, though.

He teamed with other guys to do paid research for industrial roasting, like for Nestle, and he has some good posts that worked for me better than Rao books.
 
JitterzZ
renatoa wrote:

Check Mr. Jim Schulman posts, in various places over the internet, not here.
He is quoted here in some posts, though.

He teamed with other guys to do paid research for industrial roasting, like for Nestle, and he has some good posts that worked for me better than Rao books.



Thank youThumbsUp
 
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