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NewBean
06/12/2019 3:57 PM
Just waiting on my TC4 shipment then it's roasting time

snwcmpr
06/03/2019 11:37 AM
I rarely purchase roasted coffee. I just ordered 4 bags from Mountain Air Roaster.

tm97
05/30/2019 12:34 PM
Hi, I use a wok with a glass lid for roasting. shaking the wok is a good exercise, actually.

NetriX
05/29/2019 9:08 PM
morning

snwcmpr
05/27/2019 1:56 AM
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Time between First and Second Crack
8675309
So on average... how long should I expect between First and Second Crack... is it probably that some beans will experience a first-crack event as the second-crack begins? Is the time period real close... or would it be like 3-4-5 minutes after first crack has stopped...

Reason I ask is after the first crack it appears as if the second crack begins pretty quickly, like within 30-40 seconds after first crack has begun...
 
ChicagoJohn
I am using an air roaster and with it I usually try to hit the first crack onset at around 9 minutes, usually in the neighborhood of 390°F and it would pretty much be ending around 400°F, two minutes later. I would finish a light-medium roast at around 12 - 13 minutes with a final temperature of around 410°F. So that would be a rate-of-rise of 6-7 degrees per minute during this interval.

When I want a much darker roast for espresso, I continue upward to the start of 2nd crack at around 430°F, another 20 degrees, at about the same rate-of-rise. So from the very start of 1st crack to the onset of 2nd crack is about 6 minutes, and from the end of 1st crack to the start of 2nd crack would be about 4 minutes.

Sometimes, however, a roasting method doesn't allow for a lot of control to slow things down going through 1st crack, and the rate of rise is pretty high through the entire roast, and in some cases you could even start to see second crack onset very close to the end of first crack or maybe not be able to tell for sure where 1C stops and 2C starts.

But if you can achieve some control in rate of rise, I would think it's a good idea to slow it to a point were you see a gap between the two so that the changes taking place within the beans happen more uniformly within each one and also between them.
So many beans; so little time....
 
8675309
Thanks John - makes sense - I usually roast hotter - starting at around 425 and the temps continually rise towards 500, where I attempt to cool the 'grill' down... I don't have a lot of 'fast' control on the temp as I'm cooking over a Kamado Grill with lump coal - very easy to rise the temp but it takes a while to drop the temp.

I think in my case since I am running 'hot'.... finding the second crack pretty quick after the first is a natural event. ... I'm talking about 1 minute, perhaps 2, certainly not 4.

I have no plans to invest in a more sophisticated 'roaster'... and am pretty happy with what I am achieving...
 
ChicagoJohn
I've found lots of helpful information on the internet, but bottom line for me is getting a result I enjoy. If the guidelines can help to achieve that, great; but if I get there some other way, that's what matters. Human nature being what it is, we're never fully satisfied with anything, it seems, so I'm always experimenting with something -- greens selection, roasting, or brewing -- but the criterion is still the same.
So many beans; so little time....
 
allenb
8675309 wrote:

Thanks John - makes sense - I usually roast hotter - starting at around 425 and the temps continually rise towards 500, where I attempt to cool the 'grill' down... I don't have a lot of 'fast' control on the temp as I'm cooking over a Kamado Grill with lump coal - very easy to rise the temp but it takes a while to drop the temp.



Are you using a solid or perforated drum? Varying heat using lump is definitely not easy but some have found ways to add an adjustable baffle plate just below the drum where you can slide the baffle to one side or the other allowing more or less radiant heat to the drum and effectively control development from 1st to finish. You'd obviously need to have a long reaching steel rod lever extending out from the kamado rim to easily adjust.

Being able to tweak this portion of the roast is of great value if one desires to find the sweet spot between bright and full body/sweeter.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
8675309
I'm really new at this and before I invest any any 'real' equipment I want to find out if I really dig it enough... which I really do LOL... it's fun and rewarding.

I use a fairly thick stainless pan, about 8 x 12 with raised sides which I drilled a hole into. I then affixed a 'handle' of sorts that allows me to lie the pan on the grill and 'agitate' the pan by pushing and pulling the handle. Works quite well in moving the beans around from side to side or back to front during the entire process. I also open the lid and manually stir the beans around too.

I get a surprising consistency considering the third-world method I am employing....

My main M.O. is to let the heat rise slow and steady so that by the time the second crack occurs I'm into the high 400's... and I do a lot of visual inspections as well.

My biggest fear is over cooking... burning the bean... so I don't like to roast until I see any oils seeping out... I want to catch the bean prior to that event.

As rinky-dink as the process is, the brew is better than anything I can buy in any store,
perfect consistency not withstanding of course... buy we all know this anyway right... that's why we love it... and feel sorry for the rest.

I look forward to going to bed a night so I can get up and brew another cup or 2 or 3 !... pretty pitiful existence but at my age it's all I got left LOL... a cup of good Joe.

I also share my roasts with friends and family - they seem to like it.
Edited by 8675309 on 09/02/2018 11:38 AM
 
ChicagoJohn

I look forward to going to bed a night so I can get up and brew another cup or 2 or 3 !... pretty pitiful existence but at my age it's all I got left LOL... a cup of good Joe.


Totally!! Everything you said. bbq BBQ grill morning
So many beans; so little time....
 
BenKeith
I guess the generic time would be 20 to 25% of the time it took you to get them to 1st crack if you go by Rao's suggestion.
On a new bean, is use 3,6,3 for the first roast and modify that where I think it needs it.
I always drink one cup right out of the roaster, with some beans like Ethiopian, that can be the most flavorful cup you get. You will find most beans will mellow out between three and five days after roasting and taste a lot better than when they were first roasted.
The real trick is brewing it to where it taste like it smells when grinding.
Edited by BenKeith on 09/03/2018 3:41 AM
 
8675309
ChicagoJohn wrote:


I look forward to going to bed a night so I can get up and brew another cup or 2 or 3 !... pretty pitiful existence but at my age it's all I got left LOL... a cup of good Joe.


Totally!! Everything you said. bbq BBQ grill morning


For anyone interested, this is the setup I use.
 
renatoa
Are we roasting coffee here or watching "Forged in Fire" episodes ? Grin
 
TallPaul
John,

How do you keep such good control in the first crack region? Are you using PID control on your air popper? I've got a modified WBP1 and can manually control air speed and temp. But, I certainly can't control a rise of 10 °F over a 2 minute period. I typically see 15-20 °C change over 1:45 or so of first crack. As such, I really don't know when first crack ends and second begins. I've been ending on specific temperature readings based on experience in my roaster. Paul
 
snwcmpr
I use an air roaster. If I am at 20° per minute RoR at the start of 1st crack, I can sometimes see the RoR drop to as close to zero without getting there. I sometimes need to slow the fan to ensure that it does not stall. The crack itself seems to cause a loss of heat, so the RoR drops.

I have not yet noted which, I just let it happen, but the beans react differently each time. 1:40 after start of 1st crack I can end up at 405° - 420°.

As to the original question .... I never go to second crack.
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
ChicagoJohn
TallPaul wrote:

John,

How do you keep such good control in the first crack region? Are you using PID control on your air popper? I've got a modified WBP1 and can manually control air speed and temp. But, I certainly can't control a rise of 10 °F over a 2 minute period. I typically see 15-20 °C change over 1:45 or so of first crack. As such, I really don't know when first crack ends and second begins. I've been ending on specific temperature readings based on experience in my roaster. Paul


One thing I think helps a lot is real time data logging and tracking on a graph as opposed to just looking at temperature values on a digital readout. I have been using an Arduino to transfer temp and time data to Excel for graphing. Having a visual picture of past and current temperature allows you to see the RoR visually so you can factor that into inputs you make to temperature or blower speed.

In my first roaster, a modified Presto popcorn popper that did batch charge weights of 90 gm, I had a PWM operating the heating coils and another one operating the blower motor and I controlled both manually and that allowed pretty good control of the entire profile -- high RoR initially, gradually decreasing throughout the end with no stalls. But small batches are much more sensitive to input variance -- a small change in heat input results in a relatively large shift in RoR.

In the second version, I connected a stepper motor to the PWM knob and controlled the profile using Excel and an Arduino. That was kind a challenge and it worked, but it definitely wasn't worth the effort.

Then I built a bigger air roaster that comfortably does 340 gm batches. That batch size has a lot more "inertia" with respect to temperature change and makes control much, much easier. This roaster also uses separate PWM on both the vacuum cleaner blower motor and the re-wound popcorn popper heating coil (down to 7.4 ohm; about 1950 watts max at 120VAC RMS). I operate this by hand and it works out so it tends to follow a natural curve pretty much, as Old Gearhead used to talk about, so that I only have to make about three inputs during the entire 12 - 15 minute batch cycle to get it to track dead nuts on top of my target profile curve, whatever that may be.

You can get a PWM the mfg rates at 4000W (probably actually good to 2000W) for around $16, and I use the same one on my big air roaster that I used on the popcorn popper mods.
So many beans; so little time....
 
Randy G
One thing I learned when I had Hottop as a client was that comparing temperatures for specific events can be misleading. I have seen ten to fifteen degree (F) variances between models and production years of the same model of Hottops. When comparing different roasters, particularly those which are homemade, can thus be fairly pointless, and may even create dangerous situations. Events and timing points are a different matter completely.

Life's too short to drink bad coffee.
 
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
ChicagoJohn
Randy G wrote:

One thing I learned when I had Hottop as a client was that comparing temperatures for specific events can be misleading. I have seen ten to fifteen degree (F) variances between models and production years of the same model of Hottops. When comparing different roasters, particularly those which are homemade, can thus be fairly pointless, and may even create dangerous situations. Events and timing points are a different matter completely.


Air roasters and drum roasters are very different. While thermocouple placement in an air roaster can affect temperature values associated with events like 1C and 2C, I think that sharing RoR information can be useful within the context of the question here with the caveat that absolute temperature readings are design dependent, even within a process method type.
So many beans; so little time....
 
TallPaul
ChicagoJohn wrote:

TallPaul wrote:

John,

How do you keep such good control in the first crack region? Are you using PID control on your air popper? I've got a modified WBP1 and can manually control air speed and temp. But, I certainly can't control a rise of 10 °F over a 2 minute period. I typically see 15-20 °C change over 1:45 or so of first crack. As such, I really don't know when first crack ends and second begins. I've been ending on specific temperature readings based on experience in my roaster. Paul


One thing I think helps a lot is real time data logging and tracking on a graph as opposed to just looking at temperature values on a digital readout. I have been using an Arduino to transfer temp and time data to Excel for graphing. Having a visual picture of past and current temperature allows you to see the RoR visually so you can factor that into inputs you make to temperature or blower speed.



Interesting you wrote that. I just received my Mastech 6514 from AliExpress. After finally figuring out how to get it to communicate with my Macbook, I did my first roast with Artisan plotting the temperature curves coming off my new meter. It does make a big difference. I think I could control slower RoR approaches looking at the continuous stream of data this way.
 
Randy G
ChicagoJohn wrote:
Air roasters and drum roasters are very different. While thermocouple placement in an air roaster can affect temperature values associated with events like 1C and 2C, I think that sharing RoR information can be useful within the context of the question here with the caveat that absolute temperature readings are design dependent, even within a process method type.


I have roasted with poppers, Hearthware Gourmet, Hearthware Precision (all air roasters), Gene Cafe (air/drum hybrid), and every model of Hottop made. The point I was trying to make (once again, unsuccessfully, evidently Grin ) is that even with air roasters, and particularly home built units, different thermocouples, different thermocouple placements, density of the bean mass where the thermocouple is located, and more can make big differences in temperature.

One man's second crack is another man's conflagration... BBQ grill

Life's too short to drink bad coffee.
 
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
coffeeforblood
I use a fluid bed roaster that I designed and built myself. It is not computer controlled and I roast indirectly and empirically. That is, I monitor and control inlet air temperature to my roasting chamber, but I am not measuring actual bean temp. I usually roast to about Full City to Full City +. With an inlet temp of about 450 F, my roasts take about 8.5 to 9 minutes. First crack occurs in the 4-5 minute range and a rolling second crack is typically happening as I end the roast. The ability to discern second crack is dependent on the bean type in my experience. Some give a distinct, clear, easily identifiable second crack and some are really hard to pick up. I love the results that I get from my roaster. I have been using it for almost two years and many hundreds of batches. (I drink a lot of coffee. 😬)
 
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