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Poppery I PID
clover
Hi all,
New here... I just bought a Poppery I that I want to add PID to. I've searched for the past two weeks both here and on the Home Barista forum to find out what I'll need to do but I couldn't find a full fledged DIY on PIDing a poppery, and I'm still confused on a few things... hoping someone can help.
1. I am looking to use a Fuji PXG4 controller (was going to use PXR4 but I read that it only allows you to program temperature patterns in minutes vs the PXG4 which allows seconds?). I want to use it with Artisan via USB to my laptop. I'm not sure which configuration I'll need for the PXG4? For the PXR4 according to Mike's Poppery thread I needed:
Input signal: Thermocouple R (F)
Control output 1: C (SSR or SSC)
Additional options: RS485 communications (Modbus)
(which would be model PXR4-RCY1-4VVA1)
The PXG4 doesn't have any option for thermocouple or modbus/rs485 from what I can see, so I'm not sure which model would I need to order?

2. What size SSR would I need to order (I'm assuming I'll only need one since it's only controlling the heat. I was going to have the fan hooked up to a dimmer switch).

3. Will any K type thermocoupler work? I'm assuming I'll only need one with the PX(G/R)4?

Before I spend $200-$300 on a PID controller various I just want to make sure I order the right one and know how to hook it up. I'm generally pretty handy with things and have worked on computers and cars before, but this is my first time modifying/building a roaster.

Any help would be greatly appreciated...

Thank you,
-Avery
 
oldgearhead
First of all I haven't used PID for several years. Instead I use BTU's per pound with the final temperature about 435 DF., based on the ambient temperature. When you pick a controller, be sure and get one that has % output function. Then you won't be a slave to PID either, you have a choice of method.

For me communication with the outside world (PC, PLC, SBC, etc) isn't necessary to roast good coffee, and the wires required just get in the way of coffee roasting.

What is more important is a clear view of the coffee states as the roast progresses, and a way to measure the bean expansion.

A 25-30 amp SSR should easily take care of your needs. I also think control of blower speed is just as, or more, important than temperature control. Because it is temperature control! The higher the blower speed the cooler the roast temperature and vice-versa.

But take what I say with a grain of salt, because no one roasts coffee like I do, using an ever-increasing ROR temperature designed roaster that reclaims hot air from the RC. Also the % on time of the heater is a simple calculation based on the ambient temperature.
No oil on my beans...
 
clover
oldgearhead wrote:

First of all I haven't used PID for several years. Instead I use BTU's per pound with the final temperature about 435 DF., based on the ambient temperature. When you pick a controller, be sure and get one that has % output function. Then you won't be a slave to PID either, you have a choice of method.

For me communication with the outside world (PC, PLC, SBC, etc) isn't necessary to roast good coffee, and the wires required just get in the way of coffee roasting.

What is more important is a clear view of the coffee states as the roast progresses, and a way to measure the bean expansion.

A 25-30 amp SSR should easily take care of your needs. I also think control of blower speed is just as, or more, important than temperature control. Because it is temperature control! The higher the blower speed the cooler the roast temperature and vice-versa.

But take what I say with a grain of salt, because no one roasts coffee like I do, using an ever-increasing ROR temperature designed roaster that reclaims hot air from the RC. Also the % on time of the heater is a simple calculation based on the ambient temperature.


Thanks for the info, that helps! I'm mostly doing PID so that I can figure out a roast profile and be able to repeat it with ease (in fairness though, this is my first roaster and I'm sure it'll take me some time and messed up batches of beans to get it right). I am planning on running the fan on a dimmer so that I can control the fan speed, so that will be under control like you said to do. Figured out which controller to get, so I'm basically just trying to figure out how to wire the popper to the SSR and PID (found some old diagrams online, but all the links are broken so none of the pics work). If you or anyone else know of any simple diagrams or could explain how the wiring should be set up it'd be greatly appreciated.... almost ready to pull the trigger and order everything as soon as I'm comfortable knowing I can hook it up!
Thanks again
 
oldgearhead
I conrol profiles with the blower speed control and keep heat on an ever-increasing ROR.
Someone else will have to chime in to help you with the wiring. I have never used a pop corn popper for coffee.
No oil on my beans...
 
CharcoalRoaster
"But take what I say with a grain of salt, because no one roasts coffee like I do, using an ever-increasing ROR temperature designed roaster that reclaims hot air from the RC."

We may be kindred spirits OGH! The FB roaster I've recently finished does this exact same thing... I think.

I turn my blower on and I turn my heating element on and the only control over the roast is airflow via the blower. My roaster is pretty efficient in reclaiming hot air and recirculating it so the temp is always increasing throughout the roast. I can't (chose not to) cycle the heat source on/off - it just turns on and keeps getting hotter as the air is recirculated. Is that what you're talking about?
 
chaff
Maybe this can help:
https://ineedcoff...e-roasting

In my SM/Walmart 'Nostalgia' popper there's a thermostatic two-terminal switch mounted on the side of the chamber. It's not the one-time thermal fuse down by the heating coil, it resets as it cools.
The two wires from the thermostat disable the main heater when open and enable it when connected together. Danger: One of those wires is 'hot' as long as the popper is plugged in.
I brought those wires out and connect them to the live side of an SSR.

Thanks for the interesting thread. I second another_Jim's comment to the same thread on another forum: with the thermocouple near the top of the bean mass the PID has a fair bit of lag to manage. I get acceptable steady ROC's between 30 and Zero C Deg per min but, if I try to change ROC during the roast there's often overshoot which sometimes must be tamed by switching to manually controlling %age duty cycle.
 
oldgearhead
..exactly! In my roaster the re-cycled air increases rate-of-rise about 3-4 °F, until about the 9 minute point of each roast then it reduces to 2 °F until the roast's end (usually 12 minutes). The ROR is further fine-tuned by the blower speed. Heater % output is NOT changed. It is set based on the present ambient temperature and the size of the load.


We may be kindred spirits OGH! The FB roaster I've recently finished does this exact same thing... I think.

I turn my blower on and I turn my heating element on and the only control over the roast is airflow via the blower. My roaster is pretty efficient in reclaiming hot air and recirculating it so the temp is always increasing throughout the roast. I can't (chose not to) cycle the heat source on/off - it just turns on and keeps getting hotter as the air is recirculated. Is that what you're talking about?

No oil on my beans...
 
renatoa
oldgearhead wrote:

...ever-increasing ROR temperature ...


Heresy ! Stone/bean him :)
kidding... :)

Did you explained the theory behind this new concept somewhere ?
DIY: IR to bean, Popcorn
Moded commercial: Dieckmann RoestMeister, Nesco
PID/ramp/soak controllers, MS6514 USB/Artisan/App
Grinder: mod'ed Porlex to 47 conical burrs
 
oldgearhead
renatona - No, I have not written a paper on the theory. However, Michael Sivetz did a pretty good job of explaining BTU/pound.

New concept? My roaster has been in constant use for six years. I'm not sure if any 50 year-old, low temperature Aerothrem roasters are still in use in Europe, but you might check...
No oil on my beans...
 
renatoa
By new concept I meant the increasing ROR part... contrary to Rao dogma about constant decreasing ROR. Could be 6 years old, today I read about for the first time.
DIY: IR to bean, Popcorn
Moded commercial: Dieckmann RoestMeister, Nesco
PID/ramp/soak controllers, MS6514 USB/Artisan/App
Grinder: mod'ed Porlex to 47 conical burrs
 
oldgearhead
It depends on what temps you are talking about, bean, roasting air, or a combination and method fluid-bed or other. At any rate I did not mean increasing ROR. I meant increasing temperature. My RORs ate 4,3,2,1. That's degrees F per 5 second period.
Has anyone answered the OP's Poppery questions? I am done hijacking this thread.
No oil on my beans...
 
clover
Got everything figured out, put together and working. Just did my first roast... I had the PID running off the bean temp thermocouple but the MET was getting way too hot (up to 540F) so I just switched it so the PID controls the MET thermocouple now. I did 150 grams of coffee since that seemed to be what everyone was recommending, and I put a block of wood under the back of the popper to help the fan circulate the beans better. The popper seemed to have trouble circulating 150 grams of beans and I had to use a wooden spoon to help move them around, but some of the beans still got burnt. Total roast time ended up being around 12 mins. Pics below
i.imgur.com/fefJr6I.jpg
i.imgur.com/16Awlkx.jpg
i.imgur.com/LzJlFzj.jpg
Edited by clover on Jul 09, 2017 07:12 AM
 
allenb
Avery, great looking popper work and controls! An equipment saving tip I'd like to give to you that saved a few of my builds from going poof is to feed the heater circuit input from the leaving side of the blower switch to ensure it's on prior to firing up the heating element.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
clover
allenb wrote:

Avery, great looking popper work and controls! An equipment saving tip I'd like to give to you that saved a few of my builds from going poof is to feed the heater circuit input from the leaving side of the blower switch to ensure it's on prior to firing up the heating element.

Allen


Thanks! Great tip... I've been paranoid about accidentally turning the heat on first so I might open it up and re-wire it so I don't have to worry about it
 
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