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Homeroasters.org » THE ART OF ROASTING COFFEE » Roasting Coffee
Who is here? 1 guest(s)
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Stop roast before 1st crack!?
greencardigan
I received an email recently from the Beanhunter Blog. It had the following quote extracted from the Blog and prominently displayed in the email and it caught my attention.

What do you think?

We spent 12 months experimenting with different roasting styles and after many mistakes came upon something, really by accident. We can roast a fully developed, fruity and sweet coffee before first crack. It is super clean and can be used for filter and espresso. It ages really well, we serve coffee in the shop over a month old and it is super sweet. It seems to always work great with African coffee but other origins can be hard to pick if itís going to stimulate the correct chemical reaction during the roasting process.


The blog is here. https://blog.bean...ty-coffee/
 
ChicagoJohn
In my admittedly cursory read of the link, I didn't see anything that would indicate what their roasting profile is or even that would provide guidance in how to explore this before-first-crack method, except for the suggestion that it took 12 months for them to develop. The coffee business is obviously highly competitive in all aspects, and competitive advantage is sought after. I guess I'm skeptical: Having achieved a system of roasting, grinding, and brewing that reliably yields what I want in my coffee, while I like to experiment a little with origins and parameter values, I'd be reluctant to embark on the before 1C path unless I were to see others without business interests, perhaps folks here on HRO, sharing their success and recommending it to others.
So many beans; so little time....
 
Randy G
While I know a lot about roasting, I am no expert by any means. But from my reading over the years and what little I have retained concerning the various chemical reactions during the roast process that depend on specific ranges of thermal energy, this sounds ridiculous. Check the post date of the blog- was it 4/1?

Life's too short to drink bad coffee.
 
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
jkoll42
Well obviously without tasting it who the hell really knows but some comments anyway. People (including companies with huge budgets) have been roasting coffee for a, you know, a little while and apparently nobody to date figured this out. "Dan found out that he no longer despised the taste of coffee" That's not exactly a glowing endorsement. Combine that with a very specific set bean blend for the espresso which means that 1) It's impossible to always have fresh greens 2) It doesn't matter if that years harvest sucked it's still going in the blend.

Final dubious observation - you're serving month old roast in your shop and are publicly promoting this on a blog?????

Like @chicagojohn said without any mention of profile or anything it sounds dubious. Perhaps someone here with way more time, money and patience wants to test it out. My beans taste "amazeballs" (his words not mine) and they're roasted in a fairly traditional profile and they don't sit around for a month.

I've got an extra minute. "Brew Ratio: Dose 20-21 Yield 50-55 Time 20-25 Itís a big ass yield and fast shot, it looks scary but tastes amazeballs." I'm not sure how many of you have screwed around with trying to pull triples. It's really freaking tough to get right. That described shot is a shot channeling deeper than the grand canyon. If that was a naked basket the baristas would have ankle burns and sprayspresso covered footwear.

-Captain Skeptical
Edited by jkoll42 on 04/28/2017 11:45
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
x1
 
ChicagoJohn
I'm not sure how many of you have screwed around with trying to pull triples. It's really freaking tough to get right. That described shot is a shot channeling deeper than the grand canyon. If that was a naked basket the baristas would have ankle burns and sprayspresso covered footwear.

-Captain Skeptical


Roflmao well stated.

(Hell, I sometimes have trouble pulling my wife's double just right...)
So many beans; so little time....
 
coffeeroastersclub
To add my 2 cents, any bean pulled prior to first crack is gonna be aweful tough on your grinder, for starters. And their statement, " We can roast a fully developed BLAH BLAH BLAH coffee before first crack" is scientifically oxymoronic. Shock

Len
Edited by coffeeroastersclub on 04/28/2017 13:59
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." ~Abraham Lincoln
x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1
 
http://www.coffeeroastersclub.com
jkoll42
coffeeroastersclub wrote:

And their statement, " We can roast a fully developed BLAH BLAH BLAH coffee before first crack" is scientifically oxymoronic.


Truth
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
hankua
I've have also heard the same thing from an expert roaster with over 20 years of experience; who also builds coffee roasters. And had the coffee on his syphon bar, which looked and tasted normal.

We had a language problem at the time, so I left his cafe wondering how this was possible or if it was a communication issue.
 
hankua.wordpress.com
walt_in_hawaii
In the bike world we used to call this bench racing :)
I gave it a quick read, didn't take it really seriously; but I've often wondered the same, although the points mentioned already came to mind; I mean, Rao's got some valid points and I've pretty much always followed his guidelines in a general sense. But I've also noticed a few times early on, that you can approach somewhat the same colors by going a little longer but keeping temps lower than normal; it was not a strict 1:1 ratio of time and temp that would invariably produce the same colors in the finished roast. I logged it mentally but never came back to do the obvious corollary research and try roasting by varying the temp more, which seems to be what this guy is doing although its tough to tell because he doesn't get into specifics. But, how hard could it be? c'mon, you guys, give it a shot and someone report back. Stretch out the heat prior to 1C and go super slow and give it more time there, and skirt 1C without actually touching it off and dump it... easy to do in, say, an air popper. Now that I'm learning my Kaldi drum, that's a kinda tall order, it doesn't like micro changes in heat development and I can't see myself dropping before 1C. I might pull out the air popper and give this a go.
 
ChicagoJohn
c'mon, you guys, give it a shot and someone report back. Stretch out the heat prior to 1C and go super slow and give it more time there, and skirt 1C without actually touching it off and dump it... easy to do in, say, an air popper.


As you say, Walt, depending upon the order of a chemical reaction, kinetics are a function of temperature. In many cases, reaction rate roughly doubles with every 10įC increase in temperature. If slowed enough to allow for diffusion of gas/vapor with low internal pressure build, it should be possible to proceed through these reactions without the usual sounds and possibly expansion, and similarly, to proceed through the oxidative and thermal degradation in 2C all the way to a Charbucks-level roast you can put directly in the trash can without bothering to grind and brew :)

So to summarize the consensus, the questions seem to be what benefits this would offer and, if there are any, why this isn't the suggested method of folks like Scott Rao. In my limited experience with roasting, on the few occasions I've had significantly lengthened roast intervals due to equipment problems, I haven't liked the effects in the cup at all. If you decide to try it, I'll be interested in your assessment.
So many beans; so little time....
 
coffeeroastersclub
walt_in_hawaii wrote:

In the bike world we used to call this bench racing :)
I gave it a quick read, didn't take it really seriously; but I've often wondered the same, although the points mentioned already came to mind; I mean, Rao's got some valid points and I've pretty much always followed his guidelines in a general sense. But I've also noticed a few times early on, that you can approach somewhat the same colors by going ... easy to do in, say, an air popper. Now that I'm learning my Kaldi drum, that's a kinda tall order, it doesn't like micro changes in heat development and I can't see myself dropping before 1C. I might pull out the air popper and give this a go.


Walt, I actually did a variation of this last year with my 2 lb. capacity fluid bed. I REALLY STRETCHHHHHHEEEDD OOOUUUUTTT the roast and took it out at a cinnamon roast which is barely into 1st crack. I am talking a 35 minute roast to a bean mass temp of 401F. I was doing this experimenting with replicating the turkish coffee that came with my Beko. It replicated it pretty well. BUT it was not anything I would consider to be fully developed. No way! On another note addressing your comment about replicating in a popper it is something that you would not be able to do with an unmodified popper. Unmodified poppers are way too hot and you cannot do any type of extended low temp roast. If you attempted this you would have a raw interior of the bean ... not good.

I kind of wonder if the bloggers are confused on their cracks. You can have a fully developed roast just prior to 2nd crack, but definitely not prior to 1st.

Len
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." ~Abraham Lincoln
x1 x1 x1
 
http://www.coffeeroastersclub.com
jkoll42
Len I was wondering the same thing about confusing/missing 1C. As said above it would be awesome for someone with a small capacity roaster and beans to burn spend a year verifying. My air roaster was gifted away so I would be burning through a pound at a time in the old roaster if I pulled it out of the grave!
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
coffeeroastersclub
Jon, it is odd isn't it? You would think that a company that has been roasting for some time would know the difference. It makes no sense to me, the "fully developed" and pulling just before 1st crack disparity.

Len
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." ~Abraham Lincoln
 
http://www.coffeeroastersclub.com
jkoll42
Yeah Len it just seems odd. Possibly 1) a crap ton of greens that sucked and bizarrely cupped best below 1C 2) ugggh something got screwed up with the roast and it stopped pre 1C so lets spin in as something amazing. 3) coffee revolution
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
x1
 
renatoa
walt_in_hawaii wrote:

...I've also noticed a few times early on, that you can approach somewhat the same colors by going a little longer but keeping temps lower than normal; it was not a strict 1:1 ratio of time and temp that would invariably produce the same colors in the finished roast. ...


Yeah, it's called baking, not roasting ;)
DIY: TurboOven with drum, Popcorn
Moded commercial: Dieckmann RoestMeister, Nesco
PID/ramp/soak controllers
Grinder: mod'ed Porlex to 47 conical burrs
 
coffeeroastersclub
renatoa wrote:

walt_in_hawaii wrote:

...I've also noticed a few times early on, that you can approach somewhat the same colors by going a little longer but keeping temps lower than normal; it was not a strict 1:1 ratio of time and temp that would invariably produce the same colors in the finished roast. ...


Yeah, it's called baking, not roasting ;)


I did a bit of research into how turkish coffee is roasted and I found that they enjoy really light roasts with roasting times very long. I have the Beko and it came with a very light roasted turkish blend. I did my best to replicate it where I brought it just to 1st crack over a period of around 35 minutes. I actually tasted very similar to the stuff I got with my Beko. There is no other way to roast that light and have a decent grind unless it is a very long roast. Otherwise the interior of the bean will essentially be raw and impossible to grind. I wouldn't drink it in any other brew method except the Beko turkish method.

Len
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." ~Abraham Lincoln
x1
 
http://www.coffeeroastersclub.com
jkoll42
Curious Len

Have you tried a traditional roast in the Beko? Is that method of brewing "better" with a long light blend or is it just a different good flavor? I've never tried a traditional turkish roast. I've got an Ibrik but it's really been more of a wall decoration aside from the once or twice I used it with a standard roast and a grinder not set up for turkish.

Jon
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
coffeeroastersclub
Hey Jon,
I have tried a traditional in my Beko. It was a bit too heavy in taste and brought out too much of the roast character, even at a city+ roast. The light roast was definitely better.

On another matter, one thing I need to do is get a turkish grinder; I was using my zassenhaus hand grinder at its very tightest setting, however it could have even bit a bit finer.

Len
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." ~Abraham Lincoln
 
http://www.coffeeroastersclub.com
Randy
jkoll42 wrote:

Well obviously without tasting it who the hell really knows but some comments anyway. People (including companies with huge budgets) have been roasting coffee for a, you know, a little while and apparently nobody to date figured this out. "Dan found out that he no longer despised the taste of coffee" That's not exactly a glowing endorsement. Combine that with a very specific set bean blend for the espresso which means that 1) It's impossible to always have fresh greens 2) It doesn't matter if that years harvest sucked it's still going in the blend.

Final dubious observation - you're serving month old roast in your shop and are publicly promoting this on a blog?????

Like @chicagojohn said without any mention of profile or anything it sounds dubious. Perhaps someone here with way more time, money and patience wants to test it out. My beans taste "amazeballs" (his words not mine) and they're roasted in a fairly traditional profile and they don't sit around for a month.

I've got an extra minute. "Brew Ratio: Dose 20-21 Yield 50-55 Time 20-25 Itís a big ass yield and fast shot, it looks scary but tastes amazeballs." I'm not sure how many of you have screwed around with trying to pull triples. It's really freaking tough to get right. That described shot is a shot channeling deeper than the grand canyon. If that was a naked basket the baristas would have ankle burns and sprayspresso covered footwear.

-Captain Skeptical

Jon,
Excuse my ignorance but what is "pulling a triple"?
If at first you don't succeed...destroy all evidence that you tried - Steven Wright
 
coffeeroastersclub
Randy wrote:

jkoll42 wrote:

I've got an extra minute. "Brew Ratio: Dose 20-21 Yield 50-55 Time 20-25 Itís a big ass yield and fast shot, it looks scary but tastes amazeballs." I'm not sure how many of you have screwed around with trying to pull triples. It's really freaking tough to get right. That described shot is a shot channeling deeper than the grand canyon. If that was a naked basket the baristas would have ankle burns and sprayspresso covered footwear.

-Captain Skeptical

Jon,
Excuse my ignorance but what is "pulling a triple"?


For Jack and Randy: I can't put anything forward regarding pulling a triple, however I can address extracting a Lungo. I found that a lungo is a 4 oz yield from a double shot basket. It is a drink overextracted on purpose and is a popular drink in Italy and Switzerland (from what I have read). https://en.wikipe...wiki/Lungo

Some history on how I got to do the lungos: Over the years I have come to enjoy the "americanos" I have extracted with my superauto. Good body and good flavor. However when I attempted to make an americano with my Gaggia Baby semi I found them lacking in body. What I recently discovered was that all superautos (AFAIK) essentially make lungos and call them americanos. A true americano is hot water with a shot of espresso added. To specify, supers do not put just hot water in your cup then put a shot of espresso in. Supers just overextract the puck just like you would purposely do with a lungo.

So now every day I make myself a lungo in the afternoon with my Gaggia Baby Semi. 20 grams of coffee ground for an espresso, in my double basket, and I draw enough water through that to end up with 4 oz of extraction. Lots of crema. Lots of body (much more than an americano). A tinge bit more bitter. I find it very enjoyable with a spash of milk. Try it you may find it enjoyable too for a change.

Len
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." ~Abraham Lincoln
 
http://www.coffeeroastersclub.com
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