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koriglman
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Male Guide Reviews Some of the common supplements used to assist you lose weight are: Hoodia can be an herbal supplement that is very popular in programs designed to help you lose excess fat. It is em

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Hi RAZ. Please post your 18-25kg build question in either the drum or fluidbed build forums and we'll all try to answer.

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Quien me pude ayudar por favor, con el diseño para construir un tostador que funcione ya sea con Gas, electricidad o flujo de aire caliente, de unos (18 o 25) Kg. estoy en Venezuela

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Rebuild of San Franciscan 1 IB roaster
allenb
Turtle stated: There are openings on both sides of the burner chamber that should provide good air flow with the exhaust/cyclone fan running. If I need more air flow I can install fans to push air into the burner chamber.


I would recommend against this as it would totally upset the original design balance which I'm sure took a lot of R&D to arrive at. The most I would do is to find the maximum power input to the elements where the element color doesn't go brighter than orange when fully assembled and operating with design air flow and set that as a power limit.

Also, you mentioned on/off control. Proportional on/off control from a temperature controller using a 1 second time base is more than adequate for a drum roaster and no temperature swings would be noticed.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
turtle
okmed wrote:

You don't really need to disconnect anything Mick. If you connect the heaters in series as previously described then just put your volt meter on the connections going to the heater. The voltage should go up and down from 220v to close to zero as you change the controller from 100% to 0%. That will tell you if it's working or not.


Disconnected the burners as I did not want to damage them if the SCR is wonky.

Looks wonky to me.

0 (zero/off) reads the same as 100 (wide open)

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/San_Franciscan/restoration/electric/P1080705_zpsxmfde7fr.jpg

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/San_Franciscan/restoration/electric/P1080706_zps3oczlety.jpg
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
okmed
You won't get a proper reading with the heaters disconnected because there's no load, and you probably won't get a proper reading even with them connected as Allen explained.

allenb wrote:

Some things to keep in mind when testing the output to the elements. An SCR controller typically controls via phase angle firing or burst firing and both modes of control make it very difficult for a volt meter, even one that can measure true RMS, to read the voltage. The best way to know how much the controller is reducing the power is to measure current with a clamp-on meter before the controller since most common amp meters need a true sinusoidal wave form to read accurately.

Unless you've seen otherwise in suggested wiring examples, as okmed stated, your SCR controller is most likely only going to control a load properly if both output leads are connected across the entire load instead of feeding two separate loads that are tied to ground. Did the controller come with wiring examples?

Allen


My apologies, it's been a while since I've done anything with solid state, and I apologies again for using the term Amprobe when I meant clamp-on ammeter (it's like saying Kleenex, which is a brand name, when you mean tissue). I realize your Amprobe is a temperature data logger.
If you don't have access to a clamp-on ammeter you could try what Allen suggested about limiting the power based on colour of the heater element. Start at zero and increase the setting while watching the colour of the element.

allenb wrote:

I would recommend against this as it would totally upset the original design balance which I'm sure took a lot of R&D to arrive at. The most I would do is to find the maximum power input to the elements where the element color doesn't go brighter than orange when fully assembled and operating with design air flow and set that as a power limit.

Also, you mentioned on/off control. Proportional on/off control from a temperature controller using a 1 second time base is more than adequate for a drum roaster and no temperature swings would be noticed.

Allen


I don't pretend to know a lot about electronics and solid state control so would definitely defer to Allen but here is a link to SCR power theory I found interesting

http://www.chroma...-power.pdf

and here's something about phase fired controllers, it might help explain why the volt meter won't register a change when things are happening 60 times a second.

http://en.wikiped...ontrollers
Edited by JackH on 01/27/2015 12:58 PM
RAF-1 Extreme (modified B-2K) Hottop with HTC+TC4C, HG-One grinder, Bezzera Strega.
 
allenb
okmed wrote:

You won't get a proper reading with the heaters disconnected because there's no load, and you probably won't get a proper reading even with them connected as Allen explained.



I agree. Most SSR's and SCR's I've seen have a minimum load current of around 30-50 mA and without it, will not stay latched or will do other odd things. I guess one could hook the output up to a dummy load of 2 or 3 kohms for testing purposes to avoid frying an element.

I hadn't seen the tutorial you posted. Very nicely written primer!

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
ciel-007
turtle wrote:



Disconnected the burners as I did not want to damage them if the SCR is wonky.



Perhaps a safe way of creating a small load for testing purposes might be to attach two 120vac incandescent light bulbs (high wattage) in series to the SCR output terminals?

Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK�NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
turtle
Easier to hook up the burners

With the SCR set to 0 (zero) I get a reading of .056vac (basically off, no heat coming off of the burners)

One click up to 1 (range is 0-100) I read 135vac and the burners are orange.

This does not seem right to me.

Taking the readings across both outputs of the SCR

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/San_Franciscan/restoration/electric/P1080717_zpscp3kt8qh.jpg

This is how the burners are currently wired in

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/San_Franciscan/restoration/electric/P1080718_zpsj4qnqxeh.jpg
Edited by turtle on 01/28/2015 8:37 AM
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
ciel-007
turtle wrote:

With the SCR set to 0 (zero) I get a reading of .056vac (basically off, no heat coming off of the burners)... One click up to 1 (range is 0-100) I read 135vac and the burners are orange... This does not seem right to me.



That does seem odd.
What readings are you measuring when you click up to 5, 10, 15, 20 ...

Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK�NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
turtle
It is not looking like what I wanted to do will work out like I planned

Looking into a controller and 2 110vac SSRs instead of the SCR.

http://auberins.c...ual_V1.pdf

http://www.auberi...s-RS1A.pdf
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
turtle
When I fire up the roaster and set the SCR to 1 (lowest setting) I read 135vac across both outputs.

Raising the level up from 1 the voltage goes down to 134 but stays about the same regardless of the setting. The down is so minimal that it may be just fluctuation not an actual voltage change. BUT I get too much voltage and as a result too much heat with the scr set to the lowest setting

I am afraid to keep it on too long as the burners are glowing bright hot after a few seconds and I do not want to burn them out by not knowing what I am doing. :(
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
ciel-007
Mick, really sorry to hear about this disappointing result after all the hard work you've invested.

Did the manufacturer provide a wiring diagram with the SCR? The fact that the voltage does not vary from 0 to 240 suggests that the SCR may be faulty (likely), or possibly mis-wired (unlikely).

Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK�NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
turtle
ciel-007 wrote:

Mick, really sorry to hear about this disappointing result after all the hard work you've invested.

Did the manufacturer provide a wiring diagram with the SCR? The fact that the voltage does not vary from 0 to 240 suggests that the SCR may be faulty (likely), or possibly mis-wired (unlikely).

Ciel


No wiring diagram only which group of connectors was input and which was output. The are sending a replacement but I think I will try something different than this scr.

The parts that came with the roast leads me to believe that there were 2 110v controllers (one for each burner) and my trying to move to a single one might not be the way to go.

At least I have my hottop so I can continue running through the 100# of green I have here. Which reminds me.... I need to roast again tomorrow.

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/San_Franciscan/restoration/electric/scr_in_out_zpsnqlf40m6.gif
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
turtle
It has been recommended by a HRO member that I run 4 conductor wire (2 positive, 1 neutral + ground) and rewire things to have a shared return/neutral for each of the 120VAC burners along with a dedicated ground and the 2 positive lines.

This will entail rewiring the internals a little bit to split the existing neutral/ground into separate lines AND grounding the entire roaster, not just the electric panel of it.

I am having issues with the relay. I get feed to both the 240V legs with the switch on or off so either it is wired wrong or the relay is not working.

I am not all that up on how an electric relay works so if someone wants to fill me in here is the current wiring. The 2 120V feeds and both legs of the 240V feed should shut on and off with the front panel switch.

Taking the relay out and checking continuity

Pins 8 and 6 are connected and pins 1 and 3 are connected (give a beep on my Fluke 77 III meter)

Pins 7 and 2 read minimal resistance (0.934 ohms)

all others read open (OL).

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/San_Franciscan/restoration/electric/relay2_zpssdsyntq4.jpg
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
turtle
Oh and I now have 2 120V 25A SSRs a 60 amp heat sink and a variable controller to use instead of the single 240V one that did not seem to work as expected.

So things are moving slowly but moving along

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/San_Franciscan/restoration/electric/ssrController_zpssy8uv9ok.jpg
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
okmed
Sounds to me like the contacts on the relay are welded shut, 6 to 8 and 1 to 3 are the normally open (N.O.) contacts of the relay so there should be no continuity with no power to the coil. That relays contacts are only rated for 12 amps at 120 volts and your heater element draws 14.5 amps. Also check to see what your socket is rated for. The lower of the two will be your limit. Don't use any relay at its maximum, preferably no more than 80% of its full rating.
RAF-1 Extreme (modified B-2K) Hottop with HTC+TC4C, HG-One grinder, Bezzera Strega.
 
okmed
A 2 pole contactor is what you should really be using.

http://www.schnei...ontactors/
Edited by ginny on 02/10/2015 2:07 AM
RAF-1 Extreme (modified B-2K) Hottop with HTC+TC4C, HG-One grinder, Bezzera Strega.
 
turtle
I found a 30a 240v Dayton relay. Would this be appropriate for the main burner on/off control relay?

http://www.graing...elay-1EJH4

Specs look acceptable based on what I will be pulling for the burners.

I am so limited with space.

If you know of any other 30A 240V relay that is smaller I am open to all suggestions.

I don't have room for a manual on/off 240v master switch inside the electric enclosure unless I add another box somewhere and the way the roaster is mounted on the wooden base there is little space available without moving the roaster and re-drilling the base. I'd like to keep the roaster looking as original as I can considering it is a rare bird
Edited by turtle on 02/09/2015 5:25 PM
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
turtle
okmed wrote:

A 2 pole contactor is what you should really be using.

http://www.schnei...contactors/


Space is a consideration.

I was told the SSDs and controller should do what I am after and they barely fit within the area where the original controls were located. I "should" be able to run the burners up and down through their heat range (750-1000ºF each). The factory stated beat range of the burners is base on a heat gun tube with a flow of air across the burners but free air and the fan on the roaster pulling through the roasting chamber I should be close to this output range.

This should be very close to the heat output of the same size (1 lb) gas roaster if I can get it all working.
Edited by ginny on 02/10/2015 2:08 AM
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
okmed
turtle wrote:


I am having issues with the relay. I get feed to both the 240V legs with the switch on or off so either it is wired wrong or the relay is not working.

I am not all that up on how an electric relay works so if someone wants to fill me in here is the current wiring. The 2 120V feeds and both legs of the 240V feed should shut on and off with the front panel switch.

Taking the relay out and checking continuity

Pins 8 and 6 are connected and pins 1 and 3 are connected (give a beep on my Fluke 77 III meter)

Pins 7 and 2 read minimal resistance (0.934 ohms)

all others read open (OL).

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/San_Franciscan/restoration/electric/relay2_zpssdsyntq4.jpg


I was just trying to answer your question about the relay. It's difficult to follow when looking at bits and pieces of wiring sketches. Yes your SSD and controller should do what you're after.
RAF-1 Extreme (modified B-2K) Hottop with HTC+TC4C, HG-One grinder, Bezzera Strega.
 
turtle
okmed wrote:

turtle wrote:


I am having issues with the relay.



I was just trying to answer your question about the relay. It's difficult to follow when looking at bits and pieces of wiring sketches. Yes your SSD and controller should do what you're after.


There are so many issues it is hard for me to compartment them. Sorry about that. I am trying to put the separate issues in separate posts. I took the fan and drum motor out of the last sketch as they are not part of the relay wiring. Power is passed directly to those via the terminal block and a jump. They seem to work fine so no point cluttering up things (did a drawing with them in but wowzers even I had trouble following it)

Maybe I should break this into separate threads and get away from this one as it has grown a bit too much to follow.

I am still not sure that these are the proper burners/heaters. I may need to go smaller. Now I just want to get it up and running so that I can test it. THEN I can START modifying it Grin I have 2 thermocouples I want to put in and have some form of local temp read out. NOW THAT will be a separate thread for sure

To the question of the relay....

Will the 30amp Dayton relay I found at Granger work for the purpose of getting power to the burner controls when the power switch is thrown?

http://www.graing...elay-1EJH4

30A is pretty close to the max draw of 29 amps (14.5 x 2 at full output).

Should I use a relay with a larger amperage capacity?

Or as you have suggest a contactor instead of a relay?

What are the pros/cons to using each type?
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
zeece
Now I just want to get it up and running so that I can test it. THEN I can START modifying it
That is wise!

Will the 30amp Dayton relay I found at Granger work for the purpose of getting power to the burner controls when the power switch is thrown?
Yes. You need to switch only the line side connection to the heaters. Since it is a double pole relay, one relay can switch the lines for both heaters. The contact rating is 30A and each contact will be carrying half that so your have plenty of margin.

The difference between the contactor and this relay is the size of the contacts and the more massive and durable construction of the contactor. For your application there is no problem with using the relay. The advantage of the relay here is clearly its size. If you were controlling a big inductive motor we might have to use the contactor, but for a resistive load like the heaters you are fine.
 
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