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JackH
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· 07/04/2020 10:27 AM
Happy 4th of July! jazzyhands

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· 06/24/2020 7:58 AM
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Stages - Time
blackraptor
What's the relationship between time and roasting stages?
I need

6-7 min to yeallow ( included drying phase ) at 202-210 degrees celsium
1-2 min more for open braun 216-220 degrees celsium
3-5 min more for first crack at 237-245 degrees celsium

Do you think that these times are normal? Whats the ideal?

Thanks
 
John Despres
For a Gene Cafe, I'd say your times look great! 14 minutes to first crack is a very nice time.

JD
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
www.sceneitallproductions.com
erik82
These are my times:
2 min @205C
4 min @220C
After that depends on the hardness of the bean but between 225C and 235C. At first crack lower the temp and at the end of first crack raise it again.

Following times are total times after 5 min preheat @220C:
Yellow in 5 min
Brown in 6 min
First crack start between 10:30 and 11:15min
End of roast between 14:30 and 15min
Olympia Cremina 2013, HG one 83mm #0083, Gene Cafe.
Also Zassenhaus grinder, Chemex, Abid Clever Dripper, Kalita Wave, Aeropress, Hario Buono, Bodum Cafetiere and Bialetti Mokapot
 
blackraptor
Your profile sounds to me very fast. Are you happy with that. What's the ideal time from first to second crack. At very high drying phase over 200 degrees celsium i have many burnet spots on the bean
 
blackraptor
John actually i heat first crack from 10 to 12 min( 5 dr. Ph. + 1 yeal. + 1 braum and 3 more to fc)
Do you suggest first at 232 with 5min dr.ph to 180 or 240 degrees with dr. Ph. At 200?

Eric whats your temp when to heat first crack?

Thanks againThumbsUp
Edited by blackraptor on 11/07/2013 2:43 PM
 
erik82
My temp is around 235C when I hit first crack. Almost never higher than that during roasting. For me higher temperatures later on was what gave the beans black spots.

I almost never have a lot of black spots on the beans. Not more than with a profile with lower temps. I've tried the standard lower temperature profile for around 125 roasts and my higher temperature profile for around 150 roasts. I feel that it gives me more complexity and taste. As far as I known professional drum roasters try to hit yellow in 5 minutes. With lower temperatures the green to yellow stage just lasts longer and the roast after that not much more. With 5 min at 160C and after that 240C gave me a time from green to yellow of 8 min and a total roast time of 18 min instead of 15min. The only difference is a drying phase (green to yellow) of 8 min instead of 5 min.
Olympia Cremina 2013, HG one 83mm #0083, Gene Cafe.
Also Zassenhaus grinder, Chemex, Abid Clever Dripper, Kalita Wave, Aeropress, Hario Buono, Bodum Cafetiere and Bialetti Mokapot
 
John Despres
What you are calling black spots are actually divots - little tiny bits of bean exploding off the side of the bean. This is caused by too much heat at the start of the roast.

JD
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
www.sceneitallproductions.com
blackraptor
Hi

Erik

i agree with you and have almost the same results. My black spots are max at 5-6 beans. I am afraid to dry at higher temp, like 220 degrees as you said, because my total loss is 18%. So i'm thinking to dry 4 min than 5. What do you think? So i go yeallow 1 min earlier.

John
i read somewhere that black spots are made by hi temp between first and second crack
 
erik82
With black spots I mean tipping and scorching. From what I learned using the gene these spots happen when you use too much heat in the first half of the drying phase but especially from too much heat after the start of second crack. These divots are the cause of going into first crack too fast and too fast towards second crack because chips are blown of by too rapid expansion of the bean and too much CO2 production. I experimented with 220C from the start but that was a bit too much. First 2 min 205C and then 220C is safe to do.

Drying means getting the bean temp to 150C (yellow stage) and getting enough water out of the bean to prevent scorching later on but to leave enough water in the bean to get a good development of the flavours. Using less heat like in the standard profile (5min @150C and then full blast) will cause the beans to roast longer and thus lose more weight. The drying phase, in my eyes, is too long with that profile.

My weight loss is usually 13-14% and the result city+/full city. I usually up the temp to 225C at 6 minutes and 230-235C from 8-9min depending on the bean. Because I start with a higher temp it's not good to set the temp to 235C at 5-6min like you would normally do. That gives far lesser results and scorching. The goal in roasting is to put as much heat in the bean in the beginning as possible without damaging the structure and after that level off a bit towards first crack.

Just try this profile with 5 min preheating at 220C. Then dump the beans in (250gr).
- First 2 min @ 205C
- Then 4 min @ 220C (2min of this is still drying)
- Then 225C for 2 min
- Then 233C till the start of first crack (around 10:30-11:15)
- At the start of first crack lower the temp 2-3C each cycle till you hit 225-227C
- At the last 30 seconds of first crack (2 min total for first crack) set the temp to 231-235C depending on the result you want

Keep the time from start of first crack (not the first isolated pops but the first 3 consecutive pops) to the end of roast between 3:30 and 4 min. This profile should work well with most beans except the real soft ones where you want lower temps.
Edited by erik82 on 11/08/2013 12:29 PM
Olympia Cremina 2013, HG one 83mm #0083, Gene Cafe.
Also Zassenhaus grinder, Chemex, Abid Clever Dripper, Kalita Wave, Aeropress, Hario Buono, Bodum Cafetiere and Bialetti Mokapot
 
blackraptor
I understand and agree with you, thats why i also dry at 180 and not at 150 degrees.
Whats the reason at third step to stay at 225 for 2 min , to hit first crack at very hi temp?
Do you not stall first crack at 233 degrees?
I'll test tomorrow.
Thank youGrin
 
erik82
Because you're starting with a lot of heat you don't want to go too fast after that. If you do you'll damage the beans that's why I added a stage in between @225C. If you want to stall first crack you'll have to go to around 210-215C. I varied the temps and tested for over 100 roasts to find out which stages needed less heat or more heat later on and not damage the beans. It's a balance you need to test for every bean. The profile I gave is a kind of standard from which you can fine tune. Maybe you can go 230C @7 min and set the max to 238-240C @9min. The profile I gave was a bit on the safe side.

Maybe some point to make. My gene is pretty fast. When I use the standard profile and after 5 min @150C it'll hit 250C @9:30 total and damage the beans. I need to be easy on the temperature.

Can you tell me what your profile is?
Olympia Cremina 2013, HG one 83mm #0083, Gene Cafe.
Also Zassenhaus grinder, Chemex, Abid Clever Dripper, Kalita Wave, Aeropress, Hario Buono, Bodum Cafetiere and Bialetti Mokapot
 
blackraptor
Hi i just tested your profile

preheat 5 min 220c ( At 5min i heated 206c )
2 min 205c ( When i insert the beans the temp was 158 )
4 min 220c ( At 6min i heated 216c )
2 min 225c
2 min 233c
1,5 min 227c
3 min 233c
0,3 cooling and then to air fan

I get to yeallow at 4,5 min at 207c degrees and braun at 5,5 min and 213c
It looks ok to me, but i could not get to the temps you gave. Color FC+ and i stopped at 3 min because i get to second crack.
Weight loss 17%

What do you think about it, what should i change?


My usual profile is

10min at 200
4-5 min at 180
temp at max and when i get to first crack after 30 sec lower the temp about 5 degrees
Its about 7 min and 235-240 temp
3min at lower temp like 230 and 0,5 min cooling then to air fan
I usually go to second crack to cooling
Weight loss 17-18% and FC color. Sometimes i see and some oil on the bean.

With yours i didn't have any oil and think thats good!

In 2 days i'll taste it ;)
 
erik82
It looks like my gene is much quicker. When I preheat it reaches 220C in under 3min and when I drop the beans it drops to 185C and reaches 205C within 1 min. Going from 205C to 220C also takes under 1 min and then it cycles. For me it's all about getting the temperature under control and not get too much heat.

These differences between the rising temperature of your gene and mine is very big. Where do you live, what beans are you using and from which crop? How long did first crack take? How long does it take you to put the beans in because this will greatly influence the temperature drop. I can put mine in within 10 sec. A weight loss of 18% should almost be a Vienna roast.

The good thing with your gene is that it doesn't cycle as much because of the lower rise in temperature. This will give more even results when roasting but will probably give the beans more thermal momentum then with my gene.

Looking at the numbers the drying phase should be ok. Try to turn the temp down a bit just before first crack and let it last 2 min. After first crack it seems that with these beans 230C should be enough because you overshoot you target this time.
Olympia Cremina 2013, HG one 83mm #0083, Gene Cafe.
Also Zassenhaus grinder, Chemex, Abid Clever Dripper, Kalita Wave, Aeropress, Hario Buono, Bodum Cafetiere and Bialetti Mokapot
 
blackraptor
I'm roasting outdoor at 22c deggrees external temperature and live in Greece.Your Gene is for sure much quicker, but i have measured my plug and is from 225-230 volts.
Should i let it reach the 220c degrees for preheat?
The beans i use are from o'coffee the onix microlot speciality from brazil
http://ocoffee.com.br/produto/1/blends/onix_microlot_0111.html#17

I think that i also drop the beans very fast, maybe 10 sec could also be my time.
So the advantage of slow gene is that the steps after drying are not necessary and the disadvantage that it reaches slower the target temp, with more caramelization?
Why are we saying that the time between first and second crack should be 3-4 min and professional roaster as i know need only under 1 min?
Thanks again for your help
 
themikeinbaltimore
wow Erik. You can get max in 3 minutes? Takes mine 8 or so. I can't get divots or singes on my beans if I tried. Wish I had a quicker gene. did you mod your heater wire to get a quick gene like that or is that from just high voltage from the outlet?
 
blackraptor
Mine takes 6 min to max
I don't think thats the outlet
I tested mine with 230v on the plug and same result

My fastest temps are

preheat 10 min 200 ( drop the beans at 159c)
4 min 175 drying

at 5,5 min 202
7,5 min 226
8,5 min 232
9,5 min 236
10,5 min 242
Edited by blackraptor on 11/09/2013 9:21 AM
 
erik82
My gene is 100% standard. Maybe you got a gene with a 240V heater instead of a 230V. My warranty is nearly over and then I'm going to do the dimmer mod for better results. Sometimes I would like my gene to be slower because it's very fast now. With the dimmer mod everything will get better. I hate the cycling of the element because it gives less uniform results although it doesn't have an effect on the taste.

As far as I know professional drum roasters want a time from first crack to end of roast of about 3-4min. The shorter times are the new Scandinavian third wave very light and acidic roasts. Fluidbed roasters are also quicker.

In my eyes the best results will be when you hit yellow in 5 min, caramel in 5:45-6:00 min, first crack around 10-11 min and end of roast around 3:30-4:00 min after the start of first crack. What profile you need to use depends on your gene and how fast it is and of course the type of bean.

Just try some different profiles. In the drying phase your gene will start lower after preheat but the heating element will stay on the whole time and mine will cycle. If you look at your time to yellow it's ok. I wouldn't preheat any higher because the bean can damage when you put them in a drum that is too hot. Just try some different profiles till you hit the sweet spot and use the times I gave above as a guideline. All genes are so different that it's hard to give profiles to other users.

I've never measured the voltage here and never did the empty full blast test. I'll do that test the next time I'm roasting to see how fast it really is.
Olympia Cremina 2013, HG one 83mm #0083, Gene Cafe.
Also Zassenhaus grinder, Chemex, Abid Clever Dripper, Kalita Wave, Aeropress, Hario Buono, Bodum Cafetiere and Bialetti Mokapot
 
blackraptor
How can i recognize which beans needs preheat or not?
 
blackraptor

Quote

blackraptor wrote:

How can i recognize which beans needs preheat or not?

Caramel stage is from yeallow to braun? Should it be short like 1 min as you say?
 
erik82
You always need to preheat the drum. My time from drop to yellow is around 5 min and drop to caramel is around 6 min. So for me, the development from yellow to caramel goes pretty fast. This is why I keep the temperature down at that stage because the beans have a big thermal momentum and adding much heat at that stage with my Gene would damage the beans.

With caramel stage I mean the early caramel stage where the bean color is caramel. It's the next phase from yellow on.
Olympia Cremina 2013, HG one 83mm #0083, Gene Cafe.
Also Zassenhaus grinder, Chemex, Abid Clever Dripper, Kalita Wave, Aeropress, Hario Buono, Bodum Cafetiere and Bialetti Mokapot
 
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