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First cracks relation to chaff
simagic
I just have so much trouble hearing first crack. I've tried many of the suggestions on here including the use of a stethoscope. I've put the steth on various locations (all being somewhere on the left side of the unit) and can't seem to interpret FC from other internal noises. So What I'm "kinda" thinking is "what is the relationship of the development of chaff with onset or development of first crack. If i see lots of chaff can I just assume FC has already happened. If chaff is just starting , does that mean FC is also just starting. thanks
 
jkoll42
IMHO It's not a reliable indicator. The chaff letting go really can vary greatly with the bean type, processing of the bean, etc.
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
Ringo
You can see 1st crack. Watch the flat side of the bean, when it bows out, or gets a little round that is first crack. Sometimes the seam between the two half's gets wider also. I realize its not as good as the sound but use it for a benchmark and I think it could work.
All you need in life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure. Mark Twain
 
Barrie
I agree that the chaff timing and quantity varies greatly with the bean, but it precedes first crack at an unreliable interval. Other threads address the issue of the variables involved in duration of a roast to each point.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
ginny
Must put in my two cents here and say that chaff is really a bean related thing; some beans have virtually no chaff while other have copious amounts.

I do not use chaff as an indicator of anything except perhaps watching out for a fire...

roar

ginny

have a great day
 
Barrie
simagic wrote:

I just have so much trouble hearing first crack. I've tried many of the suggestions on here including the use of a stethoscope. I've put the steth on various locations (all being somewhere on the left side of the unit) and can't seem to interpret FC from other internal noises. .(...) thanks


It is perhaps worth noting that the typical hearing loss of aging, that is experienced more in some individuals, involves high frequency loss. First crack has a frequency in the 10 kHz range, which is not at the dog whistle level, but well above levels tested for in fitting hearing aids for example. Some individuals with above average acuity retain it well into their senior years but this is uncommon. So we can expect to read various degrees of exasperation from some and comments from others that they do not understand the problem, so to speak. The 'youngsters' with good hearing will of course not be concerned. Others with different types of hearing loss will have their individual difficult frequencies.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
jedovaty
I was going to say bean temperature would be a better way. It won't be consistent bean to bean, day to day, roast to roast -- but will help you prepare and narrow in for typical temps. It might be challenging as I think you have a gene roaster, right?
 
jkoll42
Barrie wrote:

simagic wrote:

I just have so much trouble hearing first crack. I've tried many of the suggestions on here including the use of a stethoscope. I've put the steth on various locations (all being somewhere on the left side of the unit) and can't seem to interpret FC from other internal noises. .(...) thanks


It is perhaps worth noting that the typical hearing loss of aging, that is experienced more in some individuals, involves high frequency loss. First crack has a frequency in the 10 kHz range, which is not at the dog whistle level, but well above levels tested for in fitting hearing aids for example. Some individuals with above average acuity retain it well into their senior years but this is uncommon. So we can expect to read various degrees of exasperation from some and comments from others that they do not understand the problem, so to speak. The 'youngsters' with good hearing will of course not be concerned. Others with different types of hearing loss will have their individual difficult frequencies.


Has anyone ever gone to a proaudio forum and asked if there would be a way to filter out background bean/machine noise and visually plot the remaining noise (cracks)? There has to be a way - whether you could actually afford it or not is another story christmas tree
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
John Despres
A notch filter will do it.

http://en.wikiped...top_filter

John
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
www.sceneitallproductions.com
Barrie
John,
I have been looking for something that does not cost an arm and a leg and will give me appropriately filtered wave forms on screen in real time. So far, I have not found it. It is the 'real time' bit that seems to be the problem. In my amateur radio days notch filters were a part of the game but, other than understanding what is involved, that does not help my search. :-) Incidentally, I gather that you are one of the lucky ones who hear high frequencies just fine - and retain this ability well into their adult years, to coin a phrase.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
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gene
Extremely relevant thread since, as Barrie so aptly puts it about hearing the high notes "Some individuals with above average acuity retain it well into their senior years but this is uncommon".
Guess I'm common since it is hard to hear some frequencies in my 73rd year.

As my Gene plods merrily along, after ther 10th minute, I attenuate all my senses, especially with decaf roasts.
I stand up and watch the end of the six foot exhaust tube for signs of first wisps of smoke. I continually bend down and watch the revolving glass sides for degree of browning. At "correct" point have to sometimes force myself to wait 30 to 45 seconds past what I guess is mid crack to turn down to approx 442 to 450. After 1000 Gene roasts and me logging every one have gotten decent at interpreting.
Gotta laugh at this point. My birthday present from daughter? A T-shirt that has in huge caps "Bean Whisperer". Good to wear when going out of state and visiting coffee bars.

Thanks Barrie for your deep insight. HR remains near and dear to my heart because of people like you and Big Bad John!
 
John Despres
"Big Bad John"?? Bwahahaha!!! My dad loved singing that song to me when I was a child and I always cried. He thought it hilarious. I rather like the song now.

Trust me when I say after years of unprotected hearing working in various environments without hearing protection, I am thankful every day to have retained very good hearing. Oddly enough, I can hear first and second crack very well, but hearing conversation is sometimes difficult.

Working in wood shops, concert venues, ringing out theatres with 100db pink noise for 8 hour days should have all destroyed my hearing years ago, but I'm fortunate to have suffered otherwise.

John
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
www.sceneitallproductions.com
simagic
Ok.....Simagic here. ( 65 yo ) The originator of this thread. I'm going to experiment with something and will give the results as soon as I have them. Hopefully positive, What i have ordered and awaiting the delivery of is a small audio transmitter. The kind you place somewhere to spy on someones conversation, Supposedly it can hear thru walls. It's only 19 dollars so I don't expect it to be a James bond precision instrument. I "intend", as of now, to place it on the drum just under the drum handle. It appears to be very small ( about the size of your thumb pad) and should fit there. It is wireless and works on a 9v battery. It sends a wireless signal to any FM radio. So, you place your handheld FM radio (or larger if you prefer) next to your Gene and listen for the cracks on your radio. Two problems I anticipate. One being that the heat from the drum might "burn up" the transmitter. if I feel it would be too hot, I would try moving it to somewhere on the chaff collector. Second problem being that the 9v battery ( attached to the transmitter) also might get too hot and not perform. In that case, I would think that there may be out there a product to allow the 9v to be placed further away. A 9v extension cord if you will. You know, those 2 little sockets connected to a short wire going to 2 other little sockets. (If anyone might know of such a product and where to get it, please advise) In that case, I'd put the transmitter under the handle and the 9v on top of the handle. Upon "playing around with this set up, I will certainly post the results. This may be the answer for all of us less than perfect hearing people....( Hi Barrie).. I'll be back..... Dennis
Edited by simagic on 12/10/2012 12:39 AM
 
simagic
simagic wrote:

Ok.....Simagic here. ( 65 yo ) The originator of this thread. I'm going to experiment with something and will give the results as soon as I have them. Hopefully positive, What i have ordered and awaiting the delivery of is a small audio transmitter. The kind you place somewhere to spy on someones conversation, Supposedly it can hear thru walls. It's only 19 dollars so I don't expect it to be a James bond precision instrument. I "intend", as of now, to place it on the drum just under the drum handle. It appears to be very small ( about the size of your thumb pad) and should fit there. It is wireless and works on a 9v battery. It sends a wireless signal to any FM radio. So, you place your handheld FM radio (or larger if you prefer) next to your Gene and listen for the cracks on your radio. Two problems I anticipate. One being that the heat from the drum might "burn up" the transmitter. if I feel it would be too hot, I would try moving it to somewhere on the chaff collector. Second problem being that the 9v battery ( attached to the transmitter) also might get too hot and not perform. In that case, I'd place a 9v extension cord if you will. You know, those 2 little sockets connected to a short wire going to 2 other little sockets. I'd put the transmitter under the handle and the 9v on top of the handle. Upon "playing around with this set up, I will certainly post the results. This may be the answer for all of us less than perfect hearing people....( Hi Barrie).. I'll be back..... Dennis

Edited by simagic on 12/10/2012 12:58 AM
 
John Despres
Any electronics store should have the battery leads you're looking for.

Have you tried a towel? I used a thick hand towel folded in half and laid over the drum cover; it was the perfect size and was originally used to keep a little more heat in. I found it somewhat muffled the lower tones coming from the machine.

John
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
www.sceneitallproductions.com
simagic
So I got the sound transmitter that I mentioned upon opening this thread and tried it. It REALLY REALLY (really) magnifies the sound. I couldn't wait to try it, so I roasted up three, 8oz batches. The first batch, I placed the microphone at the opening near the dials. Although, very very loud, I couldn't "make out" the FC. The second batch, I placed the microphone in the back of the machine between the chaff collector and the L/H side of the machine. Just leaned it there. Still couldn't "make out" the FC....... SOOOOO, The third batch, I kept it at the same place. This is what I think (after the third batch). I think that the FC sound was so loud that I wasn't recognizing it . As I continued listening, I kept hearing a very loud "knock". I just dismissed it as a mechanical sound, but as I continued listening, I realized, OMG, that's FC pops. Really loud. Now that I know what to listen for, I think this is absolutely fantastic.. Next week, I will roast 3 more batches and then will absolutely confirm.......NOW, with all that said, I have a question to the folks out there ( who have been hearing the FC pops for some time), because this is how I was hearing it. Would I be correct in saying that FC doesn't go..... pop,pop,pop,pop,pop,pop, (rapid fire...one right after another) but instead goes pop, somewhat of a pause, pop, pause,pause, pop,pop...etc (ya know, very intermittent). That's how I was hearing it...intermittent pops. If that is so, then this was the best 28 dollars I've spent on my coffee roasting hobby .
 
Barrie

Has anyone ever gone to a proaudio forum and asked if there would be a way to filter out background bean/machine noise and visually plot the remaining noise (cracks)? There has to be a way - whether you could actually afford it or not is another story christmas tree


I frequent the hearingaidforum and am about to have my fifth pair fitted, so I know a little about it. Most high-end aids have an option for filtering out background noise, aimed particularly at restaurant usage, where this can be a real problem. I use that when I am listening to the GC but am not convinced that it helps, - well, maybe a little. The problem is not so much filtering out the backround as picking up the high-frequency cracks, which are outside the usual range being fitted, I will talk with the audiologist when I go for a fitting (software programming) tomorrow. It would have to be a special, for-the-purpose setting, as accentuating those frequencies in ordinary use would give an extremely "tinny" sound. I have done a little programming of these things myself, but I was not playing with this frequency range, and forget the feasibility. If it can be done I will report back, but I know it will be of limited interest.

As for software to provide real-time filtered waveforms, that can of course be done but it is very expensive and not intuitive to use,
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
Dan
What about using noise canceling ear muffs? They counter the repetitive background noise, but allow the unique, intermittent noise through.
 
http://www.intactamerica.org
Barrie
I have not tried them, but anything that covers the ears is not likely to be helpful for someone with a hearing loss?
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
John Despres
I found an audio filter for Droid called DSP Audio Filter. It seems to work as a notch filter. $1.99.

http://www.wolphi...dio-filter

Maybe this will be a help.

However, I cannot find anything for the iPhone, iPod, or iPad.

John
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
www.sceneitallproductions.com
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