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· 07/04/2020 10:27 AM
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Bypass or Flow- Thru vacuum motor
Husamka
Hello, I am looking for your advice, to choose between Bypass vacuum motor and Flow- Thru types. It's for fluid bed capacity 500-700 gr with 4" Tri clamp sight glass. This model "Ametek-Lamb Motor 116472-00" It seems to be the cheapest from Tangential Bypass type. specification as below. I am trying to avoid the 'Flow Thru" type so I can add a partial hot air recycle.

2-Stage, Tangential Bypass Motor, Ball Bearings
Diameter: 5.7 inch,
Height: 6.75 inch
Voltage: 110-120,
Amps 10.7, Hz: 50/60
Waterlift: 106.7",
CFM: 112,
AirWatts: 404

Most of Bypass type is made for the Central vacuum machine so usually the power over 1200 watt. On the other hand, using TC4 or SCR regulator will reduce the wattage to the required consumption only so it may be ok to go for this model?. Or I can go with " INSE Vacuum Cleaner Corded Stick " full vacuum machine and cheaper with 600 watt motor, but then downside it will be Flow-Thru motor which needs housing and no hot air recycle.
Edited by Husamka on 06/03/2020 6:34 PM
 
btreichel
Look for something like this. A low? (not sure I remember correctly) kv number means higher torque, which means more static pressure. Have lifted 1.5 kg green with a motor like this in a 150mm tube. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/dr-mad-thrust-40mm-8-blade-alloy-edf-8000kv-motor-330-watt-3s.html?queryID=b301d66c6da9a9f3e1c3a28e16af2990&objectID=45812&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products
Edited by btreichel on 06/02/2020 10:43 PM
 
lil_roasty
Hi Husamka,

I can't say from direct experience since my project is still in progress, but I've been designing a fluid bed coffee roaster with roughly the same target capacity + roast chamber size as yours.

I purchased the Ametek 116520-50 from Ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMETEK-LAMB-...3273833226). I spent a decent amount of time researching which blower to use. For your application I'd recommend the same based on my search (again disclaimer that I haven't finished my project).

Here's the datasheet for 116520-50 (mine): https://www.grainger.com/ec/pdf/AMETE...-Sheet.pdf
Here's the datasheet for 116472-00 (the one you list): https://catalog.ametekdfs.com/pdf/116...647200.pdf

Pretty similar, except the one you mentioned is roughly 2x more powerful and two stage, vs mine is one stage. It's difficult to predict the vacuum power you will need without testing. It seems to depend primarily on load size (5-700g is not huge), length/cross sectional areas of pipes in your air flow chain, and the nozzle geometry you use at bottom of roast chamber. I've seen several anecdotal reports here that these sorts of blowers tend to be "overkill", which is largely why I chose a relatively low power option. I think that one stage motors still have sufficient static pressure capabilities for most <1kg air roasters.

I found the various reasonably-applicable lower-end Ametek motors cost about the same ($60-90), so price wasn't a huge factor in my decision. Over-specing your motor isn't necessarily a bad idea, BUT you don't want to go overboard can be problematic because...

  1. If you plan to use a "AC dimmer"/"router speed controller" type speed controller, I understand that motors get unstable at lower power, not sure exactly the limit but maybe <30% power. If you get a motor that is significantly more powerful than you need, you may have difficulty driving the it slow enough! I think DC motor controllers like KBIC-125 are better in this respect (can drive slower), but have other downsides (cost, more difficult to control via microcontroller).
  2. More power is bad! More power means you need bigger specced control components, wiring, circuit breaker, etc. I think even my motor is probably overkill at ~650W, and I think ~1400W draw for the one you list is massive overkill. 1400W blower + 1700W heater is a huge power draw.
  3. They are bigger (perhaps not a big deal depending on your goals)
  4. They are possibly louder


I think tangential bypass is the best bet for most home coffee roasting projects because they are easy to hook up and can support some hot air on the intake. Even if you don't need it, it doesn't hurt IMO.

Here's a similarly speced build thread (Brewin_Bruin) you may enjoy: https://forum.homeroasters.org/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=5505

I also considered using spa/leaf/stick vac blowers, but I decided against it mostly because datasheets for those are nonexistant so I didn't know what I'd get, whereas most Ametek motors have available and complete datasheets.

Hope this helps!
 
Husamka

Quote

btreichel wrote:

Look for something like this. A low? (not sure I remember correctly) kv number means higher torque, which means more static pressure. Have lifted 1.5 kg green with a motor like this in a 150mm tube. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/dr-mad-thrust-40mm-8-blade-alloy-edf-8000kv-motor-330-watt-3s.html?queryID=b301d66c6da9a9f3e1c3a28e16af2990&objectID=45812&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products



Thank you " btreichel " for spending time to search it out.
 
Husamka
Thank you lil_roasty for your explanation.
In Canada, Model 116472-00 is CAD$ 118 while the smaller motor Model 116520-50 is CAD$ 165. Compare to the US it should be CAD $80 only. I will check with the local Vacuum shops to see if they have it.
The controller will be TC4 with 2x1600 Watt of these heaters https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32851692091.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.62894c4d6Fk9i6

If the first blower with low speed, consumes less wattage then it's okay but if not, then it uses too much power. I didn't know about the 30% and difficulty driving it slow enough. Maybe the experienced roasters here can advise us.
 
jbrux4

Quote

Husamka wrote:

If the first blower with low speed, consumes less wattage then it's okay but if not, then it uses too much power. I didn't know about the 30% and difficulty driving it slow enough. Maybe the experienced roasters here can advise us.


I have an Ametek 122341-07, $75 with shipping:
Thru-Flow
Blower Stages: 1
Speeds: 1
CFM @ 2 in. Orifice: 147
Hz: 60/50
Phase: 1
Max Amps: 12
Max Air Watts: 500
Replacement Brushes: 2UV81

There are stuttering issues when I get to 19% utilization. This poses a slight problem when doing low weight bean charges around 150-300g or so. I thought it was a bigger issue when I was doing a lot of lower weight bean charges when I started testing and roasting my first batches. I have since increased my normal roasting charges to 19-20oz (538-567g) and I only get to about 22% blower at the end of roast - so I am safe from the stuttering.

Additionally, because I added the extension pipe above the roast chamber, any stuttering does not launch beans out of the pipe. Before, when I only had the height of the sight glass, stuttering meant a pressure increase and that would blow some beans out of the chamber. Now, the stuttering wouldn't cause anything detrimental to the roast.
R/
Jared
 
Husamka
Jared, Thank you for your advice. I am trying to avoid the high amp motors like 12 amp and looking for a size 6-8 amp Bypass type. but it seems to be not available so we have to accept the big size and the question is if 20-30% utilization comes with lower noise and less Amper consumption so it will be accepted.
 
Gullygossner

Quote

Husamka wrote:

Jared, Thank you for your advice. I am trying to avoid the high amp motors like 12 amp and looking for a size 6-8 amp Bypass type. but it seems to be not available so we have to accept the big size and the question is if 20-30% utilization comes with lower noise and less Amper consumption so it will be accepted.


The Kirby Vacuums use a 7A motor if I am not mistaken, have ~130CFM suction and can be had for fairly good price if you keep your eye out on local buy/sell or thrift stores. The downside of it is you would have to incorporate the Kirby base into your roaster design.
 
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